[Repost] Ziggy Rambles About Overlord (shocker) and It's Meric and Place In the Light Novel Canon

 

Does Overlord have a good Story?

Not everyone agrees on that one. Mainly criticism centers on the slow pace, the lacking depth and development of the overabundance of characters and far too much exposition interupting the story's rhythm.

Something i'm trying to reflect on is what message and meaning Overlord tries to show/tell the reader

If we go by things Maruyama says though, the story he is trying to tell gets complicated in how we judge it apart from just the core writing critique. Maruyama is adamant he wanted all the mechanical exposition as a setting back bone and not just to fill page counts. Effectively he wanted extremely concrete verisimiltude or in universe consistency. Now this backfires sometimes because we know some conflicts are already spoken for. I'm strictly of the opinion although Overlord can be judged alone, it's more concretely a work that relies on meta textual knowledge of other things first to truly grasp the many messages it contains. For example, Gundam Iron Blooded Orphans was met with mixed reception, but it's only in lookin g at it outside isolation you understand why the 'errors' it made came to be and the message it was trying to tell becomes clearer. Overlord is much the same. Gundam relies on 'tropes' just as Overlord does. These tropes exist to serve as way stones or tools for the broader story. Just like they do in Overlord. The difference is the organization of tropes within the story also tells a story in Overlord and serves as allegories for things from all over. So you have the YGGDRASIL vs New World mechanical meta meanings and commentary. Then you have the trope menagerie being used in strange and entertaining ways (the bad guy is the paranoid MMO player, the Gods of the world are just MMO Players, etc). But you also have tangible commentary on various practices, like the Kingdom vs Empire serving as another meaning apart from tropes and mechanics all together.

 

 

As a 'story' Overlord might be lacking in logistical foresight, resolution, build up, and stakes. But not all of these weaknesses were unintended. Maruyama for example lamented the lack of stakes at times but refused to step away from the initial premise of the story: a MUSOU or story of a peerless character. From a writing compositional perspective, some people see the various isekai staples in Overlord not as cliche or hackneyed writing but instead Maruyama's meta comedy on "the gods of the world are just players iwth MMO powers, gear, and origins" in a traditional fantasy world. Going further, Ainz and Nazarick embody several fantasy tropes but we are actually privy to why the 'Big Bad Evil Guy' has his 'fanatically loyal subordinates'. Or why the Knight in Shiny Armor is infatuated with the princess or why things are being manipulated into that direction . If there is a broader message in Overlord though, what some may call a weakness, ie the non humans act too human could be a fragment instead of the looser message sprinkled throughout Overlord: what people seem like are not in fact what they are. Jirnvciv isn't some manical authoritarian, he's a man who had to get blood on his hands to salvage a terrible situation but broke his own heart in the process. That big bad evil guy that razed an entire kingdom is actually a guy under the weight of never ending expectations. That sinister and shady pale noble is in fact just a doting father trying to prevent civil unrest from escalating in his country not for a grand ambition but instead for mostly his child's sake.
Characters like Beebeezee, Neia, Remedios, Zanac, and so on show us that appearances and who people really are can vary wildly so we shouldn't judge people that way. If you compared Zanac to Barbro ost people would say Barbro looks like a King but its only in Zanac's struggle we see he has the heart and spirit of a King but not the appearance or ambition. 

 

I think people might be more lenient if it's not constructed from scratch. Basicaly you can't go "Chekhov's checklist" on a story that is a retelling of something else or has 'unused' details. That's just what transpired, no matter if 'tight' writing normally means nothing goes unused or without purpose.

 

 I think Overlord actually handles a similar trait in writing as well" not everyone operates on reasoned logic to reach their objectives.

  A problem in modern writing is readers expect everything to be logical, well reasoned, and without flaw.

Speaking as someone whoworks in the real world, no, some people do stupid shit and reality is stranger than fiction at times. 

 

Going back to "Is Overlord even good"? Overlord is difficult to judge because Maruyama went for subtlety, depth, and reread value. We have quotes about him wanting it to be like this so it's not conjecture like some would say. Anyone who thinks 'tight' writing is the only way writing should be would not find it "good" by the very nature of their perspective. Overlord isn't exactly a conventional story either though. If you lack familiarity with the various layers of it, you're perspective and take aways will be wildly different from another's. If you've never read or played fantasy to begin with, it just hits differently. The fans I see are the "when does Ainz fuq Abledo" or "when does Ainz kill everyone?" or so on. When I think of Overlord though, rofl stomping is only one part of it. Looking at the reception between the WN and LN, and the LN and the sidestory, Momonga's internal feelings play a big part as well imo. Satoru is simply charming and endearing to a sizable number of people, bumblefuckery be damned. For the more autistic however, the main story isn't as important as the slow reveal and set up of various mysteries. From that perspective, it not being 'tight' actually is a good thing because it means superfluous details can or may be used or they may not. At the same time it adds to the feeling of the world itself so that appeals to the world building fans. If a story can reward rereads and also engage it's audience multiple ways I can't say it's necessarily 'bad' even if it's not 'tight' by design. Overlord stumbles in myriad ways but it also does a tactical roll mid fall after that stumbly and continues walking on. Fans just tend to get critical of things because they see clearly where Overlord is lacking because Maruyama spent too much time on his flourishes for layers fans may not evne ever engage with.

  What is tight writing?

 Every element that gets included gets used and is relevant in some way in service of the plot, themes, or development of characters for metaphors or allegories.

 Also it's like a painting art lens, where every stroke is in service of the greater vision and the painting can't be complete if you remove strokes.

 I think you might have placed too much weight on the idea of 'time'.

Some people like tight writing because it's like how people appreciate no wasted motion in a martial art in terms of describing it's 'beauty' or 'elegance'. The same funnily enough happens in Pure math as well. We're odd balls but we have some who value this notion of 'complexity you can still see as part of the framework at large without perfect understanding'.

[Repost] Normal Ordinary Common Average General Classes DM Rambling

Another DM

====

 

The best way to think of General/Common/Average/ORdinary modifiers is as a designation of sorts. It's closer to a vestige of the New World system rather than say a production class.

Effectively, in the New World if you do a certain action seriously ie working hard at it, you will eventually level up in that task, gaining various benefits so long as you are even kind of suited for it. As an example a moron who sucks at magic may never level up in maigic because he can't evne properly "try" at it. That's an outlier case but you get the idea. What these classes are are the rewards for doing so successfully, ie as Maruyama considers it, a sort of quasi evolution which grants you new magical properties.

So for Level based calcultions, these tasks actually do count for something. However, compared to combat classes or racial classes, these classes (Ordinary/Nomral/ Average/Common) are substantially inferior evolutions. No Emperor will equal a Fighter/Ranger/Cleric in combat at all. Those levels are just all better overall. There is however one caveat: Not everyone can get every class. You need some degree of Affinity for combat classes or so it appears. That's why villagers are only like Levle 1 to 3 and soldiers in nations like Re Estize tend to be veyr low leveled compared to others. Even in the Lizardmen villages not everyone could be Warriors just by training. Some of these classes you can force if you do what Climb did, that is train until you are literally puking blood and do this for years, but mos tpeople lack that "hard work" drive and so can't even get the classes you could eventually get by just trying hard.

Ordinary/Normal/Average classes are different. There doesn't actually appear to be any Affinity for these, you just need to fulfill the aspects of the class and eventually you will acquire it. By being a Slave you acquire Slave levels.










Farmer doesn't seem to have it because Maruyama didn't appear to have decided on how to notate these classes yet. For a precedence, Genius classes actually were not notated as CLASS NAME (GENIUS) originally. He revised the notation about the same time that he introduced the CLASS NAME (ORDINARY). Farmer was introduced in Volume 8., released on December 2014.  He had the idea to include these classes since December 2013 on record.  It's not first notated until Volume 9 wherein we see Maruyama adopt the CLASSNAME (CAVEAT NOTE) notation style he would then stick with.

Some people theorize Farmer counts as a YGGDRASIL production class (these agricultural classes are suggested to exist) but given the notes on it, it's often discounted as Maruyama hoping to and failing to convey that Ordinary classes are well ordinary and so should be obvious as non-combat classes. On a speical note, he didn't want to probably notate them because he didn't want to hint at their source by notating them in a way like they originally were. Or so the conjecture goes.

Ordinary/Common/Average/General/Normal [Gocan Cogan Nocag Nogac  Gacon Cagon Nacog Nagoc] classes are non=combat classes so you can think of them like being notated that way to suggest this. One theory is that Ordinary classes take up levle cap but don't contribute to Difficulty Rating. So in that sense DR is more accurate than Level estimates because it factors in these classes don't add much. The best way to think of Ordinary classes are Humanoid style 'Monster' classes. What I mean is that they provide some partial bonuses and maybe one or two abilities but otherwise are the inferior version of a combat applicable class in mny regards. No monster caster is as good as a Job class caster or a Racial Substition Caster like a Skeleton Mage.

There is a reason why Genius can copy ALL Ordinary classes but only the non-prestige combat type classes. There is an order of magnitude difference in power.




I don't understand the confusion about Actress. Actress should be an Ordinary class, no? It shouldn't grant combat based stats right? Did you mean why does Genius have no Ordinary modifier but Actress does?

Civilian and Production classes are actually distinct. Civilian would be the closest analog for Ordinary classes. However, lumping in Production classes into this category is wrong. None of Gondo's classes have the Ordinary designation. Similarly neither does Sage or KNowledge based classes. The difference here is not in combat stats but moreso in the various bonuses these classes grant. Sage and Production classes seem to apply bonuses to various things, and do have several prepackaged skills with them. Ordinary or Civilian classes tend to have far fewer innate features as a class option.

As it's described to us, ORdinary classes get ONE passive buff in a Level and ONE feat type option. That's it. No scaling to a skill (like say getting better at finding weak points, identifying weapons, improving smithing, getting bonuses on handling raw materials to prevent failure, etc). Nope. You get One of each AT BEST per level.

Let's run through a typical combat class for comparison.

A New World Fighter gets:

Weapon Bonus Damage

Adds to eventually increase in Focus Capacity (Martial Art combo limit)

Melee defense bonuses

Sense Bonuses (seems to be related to undead, killing intent, and Warriors)

Options like Ignoring pain while in combat, pushing past Martial Art fatigue or cool downs, increases to movement speed, not going into shock form injuries, general data level sense for equipment (eg people being able to tell weapons are strong, etc), or various metabolic bonuses (fatigue ignoring, poison resistance, etc).




For the typical caster eg Necromancer

Increase number of spells you can acquire

Increase Effective Caster Level for Arcane spell calculations

Sense bonuses for identifying magic items and other casters (affected by spell system somewhat)

Ability to Enchant, create spells, or dominate creatures

For Necormancers, increase the max number of undead you can zombify or control at one time

Undead you summon receive various stat bonuses

Decrease time required for Necromancy style rituals

Improve success rate on Necromancy effects (instant death, Despair, Insanity, plague, etc).

Not every Fighter or eveyr Necromancer gives you EVERY bonus, but you get several per level. Effective Caster Level, spell increase, and class specific bonuses apply every levle. Options may not be eveyr level however, but they aren't in every Ordinary level either.

FEW                                                                                               MANY                                       Slightly more than Many
Ordinary classes        Humanoid options        Racial Classes  Combat Production Classes             Genius classes

It's roughly like this.




For the typical caster eg Necromancer

Increase number of spells you can acquire

Increase Effective Caster Level for Arcane spell calculations

Sense bonuses for identifying magic items and other casters (affected by spell system somewhat)

Ability to Enchant, create spells, or dominate creatures

For Necormancers, increase the max number of undead you can zombify or control at one time

Undead you summon receive various stat bonuses

Decrease time required for Necromancy style rituals

Improve success rate on Necromancy effects (instant death, Despair, Insanity, plague, etc).

Not every Fighter or eveyr Necromancer gives you EVERY bonus, but you get several per level. Effective Caster Level, spell increase, and class specific bonuses apply every levle. Options may not be eveyr level however, but they aren't in every Ordinary level either.

FEW                                                                                               MANY                                       Slightly more than Many
Ordinary classes        Humanoid options        Racial Classes  Combat Production Classes             Genius classes

It's roughly like this.

Ordinary Clases barely give you any stats or bonuses.
Humanoids like Dwarves get Dark Vision, crafter bonuses, some stat biases, weapon biases, etc. Elves similalry get hearing bonuses, magic affinity bonuses, Ranger bonuses, and so on.

Racial classes give you various bonuses, a few give you special abilities, and you get sense stuff, weapon biases, etc.  A select few even count as Job classes or give you some spells instead of just abilities

Combat and Production classes give you evne more divergent things.

And then Genius classes squeeze out just a tiny itsy bit more than the class normally gives.

As an aside, perhaps it would be better to refer to Modifiers as "designations"? That is Genius and Ordinary are designations on classes?

As an aside, perhaps it would be better to refer to Modifiers as "designations"? That is Genius and Ordinary are designations on classes?

[Article] Red vs Blue - A story of Registered Overlord Sex Offenders

Ziggy was going through existential loathing as he/she/it is want to do when  someone brought up how they have trouble remembering the twins in Blue Rose as distinct people. Never fear, 

 

 

 

AUTISM-MAN is here!

"......"

Well fuq you too imaginary person in my head! 

"......................"

 Reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

"................................................"

Gefungefun. Now for those who just want the lifehacks, here's what Ziggy associates between the two. There's a visual and name way to do it so either work depending on what you are enjoying, the books or the anime/game. If you're reading the manga... better master how to see grayscale then!

 

 Tia - Blue Male Sexual Disposition LIKES GIRLS

Tina - Red  Female Sexual Disposition  LIKES BOYS little boys

*remember some people consider Pink to be a shade of Red (is it only ancient boomers now?)

The one in Volume 10 is red(the one that didn't fight Entoma). 

The one that fights Entoma is Blue.

Tina(Red) has an N in her name, she likes something in her but small n's not big N's. ie shotas

Tia(Blue) has no N in her name, she doesn't like it inside her. Yuribait.

Lakyus with the Taco Block.

This seems to have been swapped in the Web novel to Light Novel.

　Tina: Past Ijaniya. One of triplets. She is wickedly lesbian.

　Tia: Past Ijaniya. One of triplets. She is wickedly shotacon.

[WN]

 In the Web Novel it's Tina who saves Evileye and sniffs her.

 

“Sniff sniff, nice smell.”

“This is not the time to play, you idiot!”

　　Evileye screamed at Tina who had no panic in her voice and was instead rubbing her face on her comrade.

[WN]

AREN'T I CLEVER!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

"..................................................................."

Umu, umu.

Now class, for those who already can master how to spot Ara Ara Closet  Pedo Bears from Female Lockerroom Molesters, you can go to lunch early. For all the bakas like Ziggy, time for some practical exercises!

Exercise 1A:

In Volume 5, which twin was brought when Lakyus met Renner?

That was because there was someone seated in the shadows in the corner of the room, hugging their knees to themselves. She was a woman, who wore form-fitting black clothing that seemed utterly incongruous with the room’s atmosphere. “Wha-!” Shocked, Climb grabbed at the sword at his waist and lowered his stance, prepared to protect Renner. Lakyus sighed. “Now you’ve gone and scared Climb by taking on that stance.” There was no caution or awareness of danger in Lakyus’s cool voice. Climb realized what that meant and let the strength drain from his shoulders. “Understood, boss.” The woman seated in the darkness sprang to her feet in an instant. “Ah, you probably don’t know her, Climb. She’s a member of my team—”

aaa

You can either remember which twin it was, the reason Lakyus brought this one over the other, or the reaction to Climb!

“—It’s Tina-san,” Renner helpfully supplied.

aaa

So using our rule... Tina has an N in her name. Thus, she likes it n her. But only the little n's. Ara Ara indeed.

Harharharharhhrhhrarhahrahhrahrh.

“—That girl should be gathering intelligence today. The three of us were supposed to come here together, but in the end our Oni leader handed out work at the last minute. It’s all our Oni leader’s fault.” 

Needless to say, that voice came from Tina. A frightening smile came over Lakyus’ face as she heard the words “Oni”. Climb tore his eyes away and said:

 “I see… I hope I’ll be able to see her sometime.” “Climb, Tina-san and Tia-san are twins. Even their hairstyles are almost identical.” “So once you’ve seen one, you’ve seen the other.” Climb did not think the matter was that simple, but he nodded in understanding. 

Still, Tina stared unabashedly at Climb, making him feel uncomfortable. His original plan was just to bear with it, but then he realized that she might have noticed something about him, and so he made up his mind to ask her: 

“Is something the matter?” 

“You’re too big.”

aaa

Exercise 1B:

Why did Lakyus not bring the other twin in Volume 5?

Answer: she's a female sexual predator! Renner's Golden carpet would be in danger.

“Ah, I—” “—Quiet. I didn’t bring Tia along because she’d fill Renner’s head with nonsense. So could you please understand that and not blabber on so much?” “Yes, Oni Boss.”

aaa

Exercise 2: 

Which twin died in Volume 6?

This one is a little harder since there isn't so blatant a hint. In this case the color of the twin may be easier to remember. There is an illustration of the fight against some of Blue Rose and Entoma after all. 

It's the Blue One. Damn Yuricon. Trying to murder the little bug girl so she can munch up all the girls. Kappa. Ziggy likes how she says something about Blue Blood too. Much subtle such wow Maruyama.

“Sorry about that, Tia. I thought I was a goner.” 

“So your blood is red too, Gagaran.”

 “What are you acting all surprised for? It’s not like this is the first time you’ve seen me get hurt.” 

“I thought you’d start to bleed blue by now. Like a power up.”

aaa

Remember, no N means that she doesn't like it in her. 

Basically the lesbian saved the butch lady. 

Exercise 3: 

Which Twin went with Gagarin to tain?

"The one that died! lel"

Which was....?

The lesbian!

“Speaking of which, what happened to Aindra-sama? I haven’t seen her around recently…” “Hm? I don’t think anyone mentioned it, right? Princess, didn’t you tell him?” “…I forgot. It seems like she’s training with Gagaran-san and Tia-san.”

“Exactly what I said. …She’s not a warrior, no matter how you look at it. Now this is a warrior.” “Oi oi, you can train your body with experience, you know.” “So you’re going to evolve then, Gagaran?” The thieves’ faces quietly hardened. “Don’t be mean, I feel sorry for that girl.” “Hey! Is it me or have you gotten full of yourself since you went training with me? Oi!” “Nothing’s changed. It’s just that my sides hurts when you grab me with your ridiculous strength when I’m sleeping—”

aaa

Basically the lesbian slept in the bed with another woman. It's Tia so of course she doesn't like it N her. That's Tina. TiNa. Well only the little things in her. Ara Ara. 

Basically, Tia (the Blue Lesbian) starts always shitting on how Gagaran isn't womanly at all. That is she doesn't like how she is a woman who seems manly. 

“We were trained to do those things back then as well. Women who were not gifted in raw power or arcane talents could only resort to weaponizing their femininity. Though Gagaran cannot relate at all, I’ll still explain their methods. First—” Evileye tuned out of Tia’s explanation and spoke to Lakyus instead.

aaa

Exercise 4:

Which twin helped Evileye and Gagaran mind control Lakyus?

Guess what, it's the one that preys on innocent women, sneaking into their beds (even if some would dispute Gagran is a woman). In Overlord Mass for the Dead(OBAMA), this twin also almost tried to assault adventurer Solution, AKA Soi. 

"OBAMA's not canon Wryyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy"

Canon my ass Maruyama probably was the one who added that detail reeeeeeeeeeeeee.

If you responded, Tina, you're wrong!

Tia is the lesbian. And she's the one who tries to use date-rape drugs on virgin women. She even tried to drug Renner! Tsk tsk. Such a lust for carpet munching. Who!?

Not long later, Tia returned alone with the Warm Bottle. “Where’s Mr. Unglaus and Tina?” “Hmmm? Those two went looking for desserts to pair with the tea, so I came back first.” 

The tea that flowed out of the Warm Bottle was excessively thick. “Hey. Oni boss. It feels nice to down it in one gulp. It’s got a clean texture.” “Thank you.” “The taste is honestly excellent, I suppose Your Highness the Princess would not need my recommendation. Please have my share too, it cooled down already.” Tia placed her filled cup of tea in front of Renner. Such a breach of etiquette angered Lakyus somewhat, but Tina kept silent anyways.

Lakyus picked up her cup and breathed in the fragran— smell. Her expression became twisted. “The taste was too strong…” “Don’t mind it.” “…Of course I would mind. This is the first time I have drank such a strong tea. How many leaves did you add…?” “Hey hey. I know you said this was your first time, but there’s no need to quiver with such excitement~” “So that was why they were looking for desserts, to balance the flavor. Understandable… Renner, you were right to not drink it.” “How rude. Not even the term ‘oni’ could do you justice, oni boss.” “Haaaah, just try to make something more edible next time.” Lakyus picked up her cup and slipped from the corner of her lips. Her expression twisted into something resembling the character. Just how thick was the tea? Tia, who stood next to Lakyus stole glances at her and asked in a matter-offact tone, “Is it tasty?” “Hah? If I am being honest, it is too bitter. I would not call it good — hugh!”

Who would have thought that Lakyus would be penetrated by Tia? 

aaa

If you haven't noticed, Tia is the creepy sexual predator. Tina seems to be more reserved. Tia tends to need to be stopped from being a defiant otherwise she cannot control herself(in other canons at least). Or maybe Tina is just better at veiling her own sexual predator nature. 

“Yes. After all, we have to consider that we will take in many children in the future, and there will be others from those regions directly administered by the Crown. With that in mind, even a building of that size might not be big enough. Children are my treasure, and we need to take care of them to make sure they don’t go down the wrong path.” “Hmmm. Hime-sama, that’s a good head on your shoulders.”“What are you trying to say, Tina?” “I was thinking about how children without their parents would live, Evileye.” 

aaa

Damn pedobear. Going to go Brain on some orphan boys not even in puberty, adopt them and then run them ragged with physical training! The fiend!

“No, I can understand gathering those brats for that reason, and it’s pretty admirable too. If you can actually produce results, it would be worthy of praise.It’s just that people are going to be suspicious if you do something without expecting anything in return.” “Evileye’s heart is twisted because she works too hard.” “Oi! You’re the same type as me, aren’t you?” “Certainly not. I am very pure. It’s only you who has been stained.” Cheh! The sound of an explosive scoff came from beneath the mask.

aaa

“Evileye, you really do break down once it comes to Momon… Didn’t our oni leader say you can’t do that sort of thing?” “So help me keep it a secret!” “Well, my lips are pret~ty loose, so they’ll reveal everything in an instant.” “Oi, that would be impossible given your prior vocation, right?” “Alas, I am now Tina of “Blue Rose”, also known as ‘Can’t Keep A Secret To Save Her Life’.” It was then that Tina’s eyes took on a serious gleam

aaa

 

If anything, if we look past sexual preferences, Tina does seem more sarcastic than Tia. Tia is more direct and her bullying tends to be more targeted. Like the Blue Blood thing earlier. Or maybe that's just Ziggy forcing his beliefs on others. Umu.

Ziggy now must return to his people. If this helped anyone then it was worth the time spent on making it. Hm?

....It didn't help anyone? 

U-Umu.......orz