[Repost]Rambling about Anime

 Popular peception doesn't equate to much given what I know of Japanese companies. It depends on who was doing the planning and the arbitrary goals they wanted from the product. For example, say both make a profit, wlel if that profit wasn't exactly up to the expectation, the product could still be deemed a failure in the eyes of the bureacracy at large irregardless of the consumers.

There's a whole slew of issues with this of course since private vs public companies, culture, etc affect the expectation. Given the Overlord Light Novels always had respectable sales could just as easily made someone eager to produce a back to back season expect to get say a certain percentage increase in novel sales only to not reach this target deem the whole thing  a failure on the executive side. Even if a profit was made on all fronts. This is how the world works, especially if they sunk more cost into the project than anticipated.

In regards to CG I've seen complaints from all degrees on the Japanese side as well. Westerner do tend to be whinier and more entitled to things being exactly a certain way however. then again Japanese fans can be far more critical of voice actor work or casting choices at times. Less people tend to be on hate trains at least since that's just the culture though. Even online there is more restraint. Well they also have more 'you didn't support the product so you don't have a right to complain either' mentality too. Extremes considered, the two different communities never felt too different even if subsets within their wholes can be vastly different in focus or appreciatoin or scope fo discourse.

From what i remember, second season tended to be held in lower regard than the third season beyond people who just didn't like Lizard and Carne arcs in general. That's more evident if you consider there were some staffing issues on the Overlord II production. If you rewatch it there are some clear pacing issues imo at least.

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From a fan perspective we may judge things differently from a less invested fans perspective however. Many people are fine with anime adaptations as their entry into a media franchise compared to source material fans. Anime will always be more accessible for a variety a reasons from the percentage of people who just don't like reading vs favoring performance media to the various aspects of anime that appeal to others like sound design/voice acting to art ascetic.

Now a series gaining or losing in popularity depends on several factors. Typically just like many corporations expect growth, they expect because of investment and product salience to naturally increase consumption of whatever product is in question. For an anime that is future seasons would have higher viewrs if the product built up fans over a span of years overtime as the anime was syndicated on platforms after it's initial run. This depends on the media however. Sometimes sequels diminish in viewership and sales too depending on the perception of it. "I can't just get into the third one before the others right?" or so on.

All I can say for sure about the sales were both anime seasons did contribute to improved light novel sales and the anime itself sold decently to well in regards to it's peers at least all things considered from the numbers I've seen. the primary issue is decent may not have been what was planned for in either regard. Like a double booking could of been in hopes of a far higher growth in both lines of media. That's how committees view these things. usually studios don't make that call evne if it did better than they expected. These committees are usually publishers, the channel airing it, Sony, etc which can play a role in casting or production.
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In Overlord's case the studio was part of the committee so it doing well season 1 probably was a factor in them getting to go for two more seasons, the PPP  and isekai quartet spin offs, and so forth along with Kadokawa's approval. The problem tends to be anime's don't finish adapting things because the publishers pull out seeing the bump being sustainable for a while and or not projected to be worth more seasons. the committees can try to convince for more seasons but it still comes down to these nebulous ideas of expectations and projectoins.  

That sounds like bullshit but market expectations differ based on time, staffing etc. Like now adays anime's aren't pulling in as many units of sales for anime releases post airing. This can likely be attributed to the decreased physical media demand with the rise of new platforms and service models of anime consumption in addition to sequel fatigue in the market. Animes tend to have that issue at least especially as their market is more fickle than say light novel consumers. Like how entitled they feel or how they will boycott an anime for dumb reasons at the most extreme.

Anyway, i won't argue that more people were invested into the next Overlord seasons but the profitability does not always correlate with this. I still stand by the difference in how they marketed the discs as telling of worries. The confounding variable is whether if it's just due to the market or a combination of that and Kadokawa possibly doubling down on projections and expectations.  
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If this sounds contrived, for a case example, when Nintendo was working with Intelligent Systems or whatever their stipulations or expectations for Fire Emblem were basically the newer installments had to perform at or around the same level as the remake or they were going to pull the plug on it. This was far more reasonable than some other companies expecting that something will perform at the AAA level with a little bit of meddling. These are cherry picked but hopefully you get the sentiment how people in the entertainment industry over can think.

Tangent aside, the light Novels themselves at least have demonstrated increased performance thanks in part due to the anime adaptations looking at correlation. Although the book sales are strong that can't necessarily imply further seasons if the committee situation doesn't work out based on things not going good on their end.

If we look at things cynically, isekai quartet and the PPP push could of been 'tests' of a fashion for the committee one to try for cross market appeal and possibly help fund things on the anime end if someone over estimated the performance of Overlord II and III after Overlord I.
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The problem on the Kadokawa end is actually an issue of riches. In terms of light novel performance, they are pretty much at the plateau already in terms of success. They are at the 200k pinnacle already now after all the anime advertising and so on. Like you could try to go for another season but they are not likely to see the explosive amount of sales they got from the other two in any shape or form based on pure percentages. They're already one of the top brands now.

If you consider the direction things are going into subject matter and how easy it would be to adapt to anime factors in as well. Volume's 12 and beyond get into subject matter a bit harder to get approval to broadcast for example. Certainly most anime don't need to worry about that due to their time slots etc. But when you start getting into concentration camps and what can be seen likened to genocide that's far cry from just someone wiping out soldiers en masse on a battlefield. Japan doesn't tend to be as squeamish about this but if some corporation reads or gets a brief on these events they can still pull out because of their concerns or lines being crossed.

Looking at quality, Q U A L I T Y, popularity, LN sales, Disc sales, the committee arrangement, the market share potential for growth, or the comparitive performance in isolation can't paint a clear picture of how things may go. I don't think there is a way to say for certain this or that will get adapted or marketed as it will. Shit like Jojo or Parasyte can get adaptations out of nowhere decades after their original runs, while years pass between seasons of a series before thely continue. 

[Repost] Incoherent Rambling - REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

@WJohnston#2820 

 

 ```the whole thing with overlord is like being thrown into a real-life fantasy world where momonga is the evil overlord villain, with a strong focus on character interactions  i just do not see overlord as being tied to game mechanics at all on a narrative or thematic level it has no need to hold onto those things ther than a crutch for writing.``` I agree with you that from a narrative stand point there is a strong foundation of tropes being played with where characters we see like Momonga fulfill roles that are common in fantasy in general but we see these people contour and deviate from tropes in their interactions. However I cannot agree with you on your other points. First, when creating any writing, you need a foundation for how things work - from physics to what have you. Instead of real life models, Maruyama chose to base his world's physical aspects on hard game design and other series. This affects the logic of the world itself, from potential technology to standards of living. At it's core that is one facet that will shape society as do how things like classes affect people's stations in life. Overlord isn't holding onto these ideas, it was built with them in mind. ```Notbeingabletotelloutcomesyoupreferbecauseyouareboundbysettingsisprobably Overlord’s shortcoming. That’s synonymous with Overlord however(being constrained by settings and RPG rules). This weakness is the kind ofdetail Maruyama wanted to use as a stepping stone to use to write a story!```[V14AT] It's not a crutch. Rather it's like trying to walk with giant spikes in your feet. It forces you to write with verisimilitude in mind as both you and your audience pick up on rules of the world and this creates depth but also burdens you with adhering to internal consistency. Secondly, Overlord's references are intertwined with it's narrative and themes. Sadly most people don't see it due to how niche the message is. There is an entire essay you can write on the conflict between tier and wild magic. 

Overlord has to hold onto these things because Overlord relies on inter textuality to paint its many broader meta textual ideas. It can stand on it's own merits by virtue of it's characters given it's broad appeal, but thematically, you need these game mechanics to better understand why history and conflicts turned out as they did in Overlord in the grand scheme of things. The further you dig, the more you connect, you'll start to see the real reason behind all sorts of events in the setting that come off as contrived. People bitch about Ainz always being at the right place at the right time for instance. From a writing stand point,m yeah you want to show the interesting stuff or have some purpose in midn. But in universe there is actually a reason as well. Now beyond that, there is broad meta commentary on 'game logic' in Overlord as well, even if it is vestigial. This ties in with the broader themes of aspects of the series. There is the plot reason why stuff happens. The game design behind it. The meta narrative why. And then the lesson of these ideas spring up from intertexuality outside the setting driving the interaction and resolution of the component pieces. For example, Nazarick steam rolls the New World or Players stomp Dragon Lords into genocide. We get the plot reason why (dragons lazy and didn't play toxic mmos, etc), the game reason whys (level lower, out geared, cash shop is hax, world class items, etc), the meta narrative (these are homages to the age of dragons being a now bygone era ushering in a new era more reminiscient of fantasy stories or settings or games) and finally the intertextual reason (you can infer what you will from what you think inspired Overlord). This isn't an exhaustive list by the way, but one of the facets of Overlord is far too niche to explain. If you can understand what the corruption of the New World really is then you might start to understand....   

I can understand why you might see Overlord the way you do. But I just can't sit back and let you trivialize Overlord as you did. There is a reason why Overlord takes so long to come out. Speaking as someone who has tried to emulate Maruyama's style exactly it is pure suffering. And then the majority of your audience will not even be aware of all the nuance and just latch onto what's visible on the surface. Is it vital to the core plot? Most people would say no, as they didnt' notice but got what was 'going on'. The broad strokes. But if you can't grasp the finer strokes, can you say you really understood the painting completely? In our modern culture people enjoy binging things, watching at 1.5 speed on their phones various media, watching videos on content they consume, etc. All of this comes at a price as people miss minutia, inadvertently affect their own interpretation of the content (eg film makers sometimes have shots linger or have silence in dialogue for a reason it's not something to just skip to get through it faster), and consuming summaries or another person's interpretation puts up a degree of separation from the true essence of the series. Just because you might not value the components of the piece doesn't mean the piece itself and it's artist were wrong to include them as part of the sum total of it's existence. Art is a composite of many things from homages, sampling, inspiration, exploration of ideas, commentary on many aspects, or evne direct rebuttals or responses to other art. When you just axe part of something you felt detracted from one element you value, you are censoring and belittling the other elements and the feelings that went into including them. It's akin to making light of all the cultural, linguistic, intellectual factors that led to the creation of various creation myths, of folklore told among the people of the past. Things are the sum total of their parts. Sometimes they may seem lesser but in others they are greater. 

[Repost] CSA and Kingdom Connection?

 

Well the problem with lingustic divergence in Overlord is auto translate really fucks things up. People just understand each other verbally, but any ethnic groups will retain their cultural identty with folk songs and shit. So Baharuth could of just been a language isolate in the giant mega ultra collective nation and only after literacy started to spread did it start to become an issue with the others. Roble for instance has some clearer issues with this being a relatively disconnected nation and culture for whatever reason. So even if people migrate, the regions bards can travel in will be subject to these quasi ethno-spheres. Now if we apprach things in terms of anthropology, yes we can't say for sure how big or broad in scope the mega human nation really was. I've seen arguments in favor of the CSA and the two Kingdom and Empire being parts of it before it's collapse. The main evidence was something about the port names and Re-Estize's name bearing some similarities to how Kista and her grandfather had a shared name of Ri and Kaberia. The naming pattern of territories in Re Estize doesn't quite follow the CSA pattern however, if we drop titled names, there is some similarities in how CSA is SHARED Personal SHARED meanwhile Re-Estize is PERSONAL PERSONAL TITLE FAMILY or PERSONAL PERSONAL PERSONAL Title FAMILY for Royals. The strange aspect of their culture is why the nation is run by the Vaiself family but the nation's name doesn't follow the pattern of all the other noble holdings unless there was some sort of royal family name change or usurpation, coup etc. Also strange is why their titles are just Slaine baptismal names, suggesting some religous influence/movements especially given their relative autonomy compared to the more isolated Roble which church and state are more closely connected but nto as much as the Theocracy.

[10:10 AM] Ziggy = オーバーヘッポコで『NINE』:

That's ultimately conjecture still given even in Bebad the two Ri X Kaberia's don't actually bear the name of the their territory. So this could of been a development in Re Estize after the fact to name territories afte rthe noble in charge. Whatis suspect is the main logistical cities of the ports on the North and West as well as the mining city have Ri's in their names just like the territory as a whole. So reconstructing it I do believe Re Estize could of started off as a human expansion project from the CSA based on the etymology of these names bear similarity to CSA human names of at least one ruling family of 'mayors'. Rampossa's suggestion for Renner and Zanac to flee to the CSA also suggested there might be some cultural ties as well since he didn't suggest to go to Slaine which would arguably be safer as a Divine magic based nation but it could of been for religious or political reasons (Slaine not willing to chastise the Sorcerer Kingdom but then again they didn't verbally approve the declaration of war) so we can't really rely on that. Given how other races are not accepted as easily in Re Estize as well, it's strange since Slaine is both closer and human centric but the CSA is a mixed culture like Aggrande.

[10:11 AM] Ziggy = オーバーヘッポコで『NINE』:

Not everyone is as accepting of linguistic reconstructions however. I personally believe that it is of relevance in Overlord at least based on several clear and definitive examples where this does shed light on the origins of things in setting. But I do see it as less concrete than other evidence.

[Repost][Unposted] Scope of Power A Comment I Didn't Post due to too many caveats, length, and being incomplete

 A Comment I Didn't Post due to too many caveats, length, and being incomplete, being overly pedantic, and never going to be broadly applicable based on different definitions. 

 

 ```How many levels do you need to be to become 

 Town buster
City buster
Mountain buster
Country buster
Continent buster
World buster
Universe buster
Multiverse buster
Outerverse level```

 

:thinking: Well depends on what context you mean buster in addition to what the others said. Like do you mean just being able to rofl stomp X population on your average scale? Or being able to wipe out areas of said scale base don pure AoE potential? For example, Gazef would be a town buster under the first but not the second way of thinking.  Narrowing things down under the second,  nothing is remotely close to Universe scale or beyond in Overlord as far as we know. At least in terms of World buster, not even Players can accomplish that realitically barring some Ouroborus Dragonball logic of borrowing something else's power. The only caveat for World buster in Overlord then is only a potential one in the Dragon Emperor since if you can realistically transport things to displace matter on your world with stuff from elsewhere (real or not) theoretically you could summon X amount of solar matter and potentially do world devastation levels of damage if you run that to it's natural conclusion based on just gravity, temperatures, etc in the natural biome in sufficient amounts. Same thing if it was just Nazarick sized glaciers popping up over the centuries slowly raising the water levels and or lowering temperatures. The potential exists but it's not framed that way so it remains purely theoretical one. Basically anyone else is lower in scope. If we look at the scales in universe at least, Olasird'arc and even Soul Eaters at Level 40 can devastate a city in terms of casualties or destruction and evne Death Knights due to being a Zombie Apocalypse vector can potentially do it as well with the Squire to Infinite zombie exploit. What you are mainly missing in your criteria is that between Country and Continent you need a new unit or category. We have one confirmed native at that scope at least, with Cure Elim taking out several countries worth

 We also need to define city since that is going to get a bit iffy given you have metropolitan cities vs say City States like in the CSA with populations in the 100,000 range vs what nations like my nation list as the minimum size for a city being like only a 1,000 with certain conditions. A city state could also be based on a mountain too for instance. Based on your ordering, I'll assume you're going on the implicity idea that normally a nation will consist of a surface area of a few cities, towns, and or mountains etc. Basically the idea of a City State having a sufficiently large sphere of influence of a few dozen kilometers or so on. IIRC Athens and Sparta were only a few hundred miles/kilometers away at least so we'll go with that relative distance before we get into all sorts of tangents. 

With conditions like that, Gazef could be a city buster if we low ball cities with different standards than with our post industrialization globalization biases for instance. Also we have to factor in that if Gazef murders all the decent people those remaining will be far less of an issue than if they all attacked at once with plans and shit. Equipment dependencies matter too. Given Adamantites and Gazef who ranks higher than the weaker ones at least can take on several hundred of humans or beyond beings like undead at least in terms of raw strength we do have some basis to normalize.

This exact issue crops up with Mountains as Mountains can vary wildly in size. Also if we use the population buster impression, do you mean wiping out a surface area worth of people or surface area + hollowed out caverns and tunnels as well? If you've studied surface area vs say surface area plus this added dimension it can escalate quickly.

 Now I'll take for granted we're using some semblance of design here instead of 'lol Haruhi instant wins' 'Saitama punches really hard'  "Reinhard OTP"unfounded story devices instead of characters based on actual game logic.

Also factoring in build this doesn't mean a Level 100 farmer will be able to do this. Rather it's a vague sense of power scale instead for combat builds to begin with. So no Ordinary/Average/Normal  classes. Secondly we're ignoring builds like say a MP heavy Ulbert who can run out of MP if not pace or outfitted right for the situation despite his strength affecting his strength or the general level of the people or population getting stomped. Basically, we'll use the norm of the Continent of most nations have most people below Level 20, a few above 20, and a select few in the 30-40  category and are never present in numbers beyond a certain amount (Slaine or Corpus being on the higher end  of raw power level mobilizable forces in that category) . We can't discount say a nation of stronger races however too since some did exist in the past but based on Satoru's musings, realistically nations of people beyond levle 40 is very unlikely. 

Given how little we know about the Dragon Empire tha tis also an exception since we do know at least this world was under the threat of Zy'tl level monsters but the Dragonlords supposedly handled it depite what seems like disorganization from the accounts and surviving members testimonies. Like a village of just one chad dragon lord with a harem of dragons could of existed and through out the sense of scale completely. Olasird'arc is good example of a low level version of this exact situation if you discount the Quagoa and factor in the size of his palace.

 1s Vast majority of certain races, weake rmonsters, wild life, etc

10s Upper limit for most of the normal races; armies of humanoids are mostly in this range at best

20s  typical limit for people; few make it past even the mid twenties, some demihumans can reach this

30s Range form a few to a modest amount based on breeding, race, nation etc. Certain strong/apex monsters. Never in large numbers even in the best situations for the vast majority of natives. Exceptional demihumans normally only reach this far rarely.

40s A handful of the world's most strongest monsters, people, Night liches, or modern dragons

50s Freaks, legendary beings, abnormal shit from a series of unlikely events (Evileye )

60s+ Basically unheard of natively beyond Dragonlords, Godkin, or monsters summoned by unknown means like Zy'tl that may or may not be from YGGDRASIL

Population Stomper 

Village buster - mid to high teens eg Imperial Knights vs Re Estize's levies Zenberu's claim of taking on several dozen low level undead (Platinum rankers maybe)

 Town buster - High Teens to Low Twenties eg the Worker's general power level in Volume 7, the Four Knights be comparable to a few hundred soldiers (Mithril to Orichalcum)
City buster - Mid to high Twenties eg Gagarin and Gazef feeling able to take on closer to a thousand foes (Adamantite and beyond)
Mountain buster - Depends on the mountain size. Maybe certain heroes or ritual casters causing a ritual to go haywire? eg Remedios thought she could take 10000 people and the Quagoa felt Pe Riyuro may of been able to take his entire race (realm of heroes)
Country buster -  Death Knights, Soul Eaters, Night liches? (Mid 30s to 40s), Behemoths, random legendary monster attacks (as noted in history on occasion aka things like the Lava Angler Fish or the sidestory nation destruction norm)

Multi-nation buster -  Cure Elim (Level 95); Super Tier magic users Level 70+ YGGDRASIL Player  Casters (eg Biblical Locust Swarm), something like Wrath or Zy'tl in the 80s just walking around
 

Continent buster - None confirmed but repeated use of Multi-nation class abilities could devastate the continent if no one can stop it's abuse. Players or Dragonlords could do this if they don't encounter some fatal flaw or new ability to stop them ()
World buster - Players or the Dragon Emperor relying on external means to manifest abilities, theoretically that could cascade into the world's demise based on environmental factors, infinite summonings of something, the biome being altered catastrophically etc.
Universe buster - out of Scope in Overlord
Multiverse buster - ""
Outerverse level - ""

In terms of the scale of destruction individually (predominantly monsters and Magic Casters)

Village: Anyone hero rank could probably do it due to raw strength or using spells.

Town:

City: Souleater and monsters with abilities of that nature. A few rituals to wipe out a city. Large sized monsters stomping.

Mountain: Most Players at best? eg Maybe Mare, Guren etc. Some Super Tier.

Country:  A few exceptional abilities from Super Tier magic?

Multnational: Dragonlords confirmed.

Continent: Maybe Dragonlords or a few select abilities from YGGDRASIL with unrestricted AoEs?

World: Pretty much no one on their own merits.

Bullshit etc: None

Hitori's Translator Note Volume 14

 

“In addition, building a nation implies that we will be defending morepeople. Turning countries into graveyards will only damage the name of AinzOoal Gown. Now, has anyone noticed anything?”

[V9 Nigel]

“Making a country willmean we have more to protect. There isn’t anyone to praise the name Ainz Ooal Gown in ruined countries. Now, is there anyone else who thought of something?

[V9 Yen Press]

“There is the question of being able to govern such a kingdom. Ruling over a ruined country would bring shame to the name of Ainz Ooal Gown.” - WN Frostfire

The original context is that it's hard to manage a nation, but the scenes are framed a bit differently between LN and WN despite the scene at large being composed similarly.

The exact Japanese in the WN appears to be what the anime used for reference (as members of the anime staff read the WN and included WN elements [ confirmed in some interviews], in scenes into the anime at various points such as the Season 3 Jircniv reaction scene or Ainz's voice actor using a different voice based on how the drama cd was directed).

"A nation we're in control becoming ruined would be unworthy of the name Ainz Ooal Gown. "

Put More simply: "If the country goes to shit while we're in charge it'll hurt our rep"

Ziggy - WN Literal

Ainz-sama once said that ‘to rule over a ruined nation would be bad for our reputation.’

Volume 14 Hitori

Given how Volume 14(2020) came out after Season 3 of the anime (2018) and Volume 13(2018) most likely that was actually meant to represent Maruyama reacting to WN dialogue popping up in the anime instead of the LN dialogue leading him to be confused as he hasn't worked on it at the time for many years.

Your mileage will probably vary but based on the chronology, the other translator note referring to a scene between Demiurge and Fluder only in the web novel, the existence of WN content in the anime, and all the various translations of these lines, this doesn't strike me as a bad translator note as if someone had originally only known one translation they may have suggested the translation was referring to something but was done poorly when in fact it is referring to previous content that wasn't translated as good originally. Nigel had notes explaining how the orcs are closer to Japanese orcs for example in Volume 12 for context as well to address confusion over why the Orcs didn't look like what people thought they would.

Trying to reconstruct why Hitori included this: Hitori probably read Nigel's translation but then was confused at this line, not recalling these events like most fans probably would, and found the web novel version offered an origin for why this dialogue may exist.

I understand not everyone agrees on the purpose of translator notes (see reaction TNs in manga projects, vs etymology notes, alternate reading notes etc). Ultimately they should at least explain some nuance lost in translation that the translator notices but can't possibly convey perfectly due to the nature of translations. Sometimes the translator needs to tell the audience things because you can't convey every nuance of the author in a new language or due to previous translations clouding self referential content translated by somebody else later.

[Repost] Wild Magic Corruption

Q:

 

Was the corruption of wild magic due to soul magic existing in Yggdrasil?

The game had known soul lore magic like Soul-Bought Miracle.

What are your thoughts on there being other things involving souls(xp) like soul bind, soul gems for crafting or mitigating xp cost?

 

 A:

 

The closest equivalent to soul magic in YGGDRASIL is Level and EXP draining abilities, magic or otherwise. Examples include Ainz's Undead Lieutenant, Wish Upon a Star, and Raise Dead, all magic consuming EXP. The reason is New Worlder's call Raise DEad 'consuming lifeforce' even though it's not draining HP like Negative Energy when it drains lifeforce. Regular New Worlder's are not the best authorities on this however, as Fluder a famed magic researcher still admits wild magic is beyond the understanding of those who dabble in tier magic.

So if we turn to the Dragon Lords we're left with some answers but also some mysteries. Namely, the Elder Coffin Dragon Lord did not appear to cast wild magic from his own HP bar or MP bar, while Riku Agneia(the Platinum armor) is troublesome as it's not a bona fide dragon lord but a puppet of sorts. Satoru in the sidestory never mentioned BDL using wild magic by HP either as he wasn't looking for HP drain from Cure Elim. What we can conclude is that HP drain may not necessarily be life force or souls either. There is already precedence however that what animates a body can count as HP even if it is not the same power. Namely positive and negative energy both count as HP fo rliving and undea drespectively so we can't say what Riku Agneia was draining was actually lifeforce as in positive energy or negative energy, espeicaly as Pandora's Actor's tests did not seem to drain it's HP from negative energy or heal it.

In that regard, EXP drain still seems the most likely candidate for overwriting native wild magic, but it doesn't explain how True Dragon Lords are never described getting weaker while casting in those cases. For example, why do undead Dragon Lords retain the classes but lose the ability to cast? This would suggest its got to be related to HP as in positive only. But we find a contradictiion with Tsa's puppet being powered by something other than positive energy.

Using yoru example, if we suppose SBM is running on wild magic rules, then it didnt' cost hp or MP to use as far as we understand it. Also XP doesn't seem to fit either. Because Wild Magic cost isn't reflected universally and we hav eyet to see a living dragon lord use it in the flesh, we might not be able to reach a conclusion on what soul cost should normally be right now.

Now what the corruption of wild magic really is will depend on which school of thought if we ignore Souls being some new bar or Soul Points etc, you come from as we are basically just conjecturing or using hypotheses based on limited data (still no on screen living ie normal dragon lord casting it yet).

1.) Dragon Lords Breaking the Law

2.)Mana Pollution Corruption (literal filth theory; Old Mana vs Mana)

3.) Martial Arts stole Focus from wild magic; Lifeforce used to be Focus but now must be HP

4.) Auto Translate Corrupted Wild Magic as it is cast differnetly

1.) Based on Inter Textuality (going to the sources that inspired Overlord's mechanics) some say Wild Magic's corruption is the result of them using a system that should no longer exist. Just as Brain began to die and bleed from breaking the rules of this world, dragon lords, this theory holds, now suffer HP damage for using Wild magic as they are ignoring the 8 Greed King patch, where magic should be powered by MP and tier magic classes now. The support for this is if we look at native only 'magic' such as Talents and Martial Arts, they do not draw from HP or MP at all, yet can achieve power just as well and mimic aspects of tier magic for instance. Drawing from Intertexuality, there is evidence of a series where the arts of the dragons were damned by "Gods" after a war with the dragons led by a Platinum Dragon leading to any usage of dragon abiltieis causing damage.

Not a concerete argument, but I hope you get the relative idea of "it's weird wild magic only sometimes drains HP even if it's uncommon for NW abilities". So we can explain why Cure Elim didn't seem to lose HP but Riku did as he was no longer a dragon lord and had a tier magic lcass so was allowed to 'wield magic' as he was now following the new rules.

1. The Wild Magic corruption is connected to a rule change as you suggest. Basically whatever souls used to be now cannot be used so HP or something else is used instead. The idea is something like 'mana' used to be souls or life force but now it has to be tie rmagic mana. Think of it as Lifeforce or Souls are "Old Mana" and this new substance "Mana" is the actual pollution or filth of this world. Just as things naturally absorb mana now, this Mana is Pollution hypothesis claims the reason dragon lords no longe rare very active is because they are literally poisoned by the new mana of the world and thus why living dragon lords cannot use tier magic and also why Cure Eim would bother becoming undead: he can actually leave mountains or underground refuges now unlike the others. Basically mana is toxic radiation to them now. The exact reasoning is vague, as we are drawing on some circumstance evidence, but it's clear that since healing spells can harm the undead, and vice versa, it's not impossible for a substance that animates one creature to harm another even if its not damaging to other races.

Some supporting ideas for this is how Arcane casters are actually spewing out auras of mana somehow as seen by Arche and Fluder's talent. Also, undead casters form from the bodies of regular casters, supposedly.

3.) Another school of thought is Wild Magic used to draw on what Martial Arts draw on - Focus. But for whatever reason, Warriors now learn and use it. Effectively, this school assumes the Greed Kings actually made a request of some sort to spread YGGDRASIL abilities in general and not just tier magic. As people of this world don't learn active skills like YGGDRASIL warriors, this school claims that Wild Magic was retroactively stolen by the Warrior job classes. Evidence includes how many 'low level' martial arts resemble low level wild magic in scope and power, like physical augmentation, or very broad coatings on weapons or the body.

Ultimately this theory becomes 1 but it justifies the rule violation as a mechanics switch, and thus Dragon lords are only able to use wild magic now using wild magic classes by rule breaking like Brain did.

4.) A less common theory is because Cure Elim's dragon lord title was bugging out, and Tsa for some reason couldn't use his own title as Riku Agneia (why is up for debate), a few people believe that auto translate or something else fucked up wild magic accidentally. That is, wild magic was not damaged by a rules change to the mechanics but actually whatever caused auto translate. Evidence includes the fact wild magic actually does not [Cast] or <Cast> but it's invoked just by normal speech (wild magic spells don't use grammar marks at all to be cast unlike martial arts or tier magic or skills).

It sounds like bullshit I know, but because Wild Magic is purposely denoted different from all other abilities, it's not implausible auto translate would affect it if was not operating on the rules of YGGDRASIl abilities. Detractors say Wild Magic is denoted differently because it is proof it is no longer magic or operating as it used too. As you can tell, there are many counter arguments to this as there are many explanations for auto translate, some citing it was always normal in this world base don XXXXXXX etc. There is more to this theory but it's the least popular one so I'll leave it at that.

Those are some of the ideas that get thrown around from the various places I frequent.

 

[Article] FuQ Platinum Dragons; Quintia, Rufus's greatest disciple

====

 [I started writing this after Volume 14, in June, and now. So if stuff is erratic well now you know. I'm just going to submit it else I'll forget... again for the third time. ]

 

"Two Articles After months of nothing? Did you get off jail bait parole Ziggy?"

You wound me, imaginary audience. But yeup. Actually this is an unfinished article from... June 13th. Ooof. I got busy reading and translating bullshit I imported. And porn. Lots and lots of porn. Or Sasugaing myself with my own fanfic ideas. Or creating rules for my Overlord RPG. Now I know why Dragon Lords like Mountains and Caves! Or secrets behind certain... things in Overlord.  Maruyama's fantasy ghetto racism at it's finest! Fuck Platinum Dragons. Also Pour one out for Heavenly Dragon Lord our lord and savior.

 Gefun Gefun. Anyway, Ziggy wants to discuss a "big" topic in Overlord: who could the original  Riku be?

"13 Heroes Leader = Riku, duh Ziggy. That's easy peazy lemon squeezey"

...Umu. It seems that's the conclusion most people draw. It's a common folklore in both communities. Even Japanese fans... But let's go full autism and all that. Leave behind your preconceptions  (and anything covering your ankles) [Unzips pants despite wearing slip-on basketball shorts]

 

folklore:

the traditional beliefs, customs, and stories of a community, passed through the generations by word of mouth.

1.) Someone named "Riku" exists

2.) PDL had a discussion with him and world class items came up

3.) PDL has killed a Player before

4.) PDL questions about "repeating history" when considering murdering a collaborator for a powerful item and placing the blame on someone else (presumably meaning this fate befell OG  Riku from the Land of the Rising Sister Fuqers)

5.) PDL feels remorse but he'll do it again if it's beneficial; PDL's sheet mentions he prioritizes the bigger picture over his emo sensitive fearings

OBJECTION!

If Riku = Leader-kun, there is a flaw, or rather a discrepancy  in his Best Buddies Taxonomy. Tsa makes a point to compartamentalizes people as "companions" or "collaborators"

    On the one hand, he hoped that she would give him a break. On the other, hefelt that being able to banter with an old friend like this was a joyous thing
    That item was not something that could be simply given away.It was a magic item made through the use of Wild Magic. The power of magic today was polluted and distorted, so making another such item was very difficult. As one of the rare few practitioners of Wild Magic, it wanted very much to ask her where exactly the ring had gone.However, it trusted its friends implicitly.

 “I don’t know about that. The power that pollutes the world might have started moving once more.”There was a hole on the armor’s right pauldron, like it had been pierced by a lance.“...Have the hundred-year aftershocks come? They aren’t on the side of this world like Leader was?

[V7]

 

Rigrit confirmed she knew Leader-kun was a Player(implicitly) and was firmly "on the world's side"  . This suggests, Leader-kun wasn't a collaborator but... a comrade.

 Dun Dun Duuuuuun

 

>Tsa felt ashamed for his own thoughts. He had believed that Azuth had made a deal with Albedo, or perhaps the Sorcerer King directly, to betray him. How-ever, all was fair play in terms of hypotheticals, Azuth was just a collabora-tor and not a companion after all. That said, he could not prove if Azuth had switched sides or not.

[V14]

 Tsa makes a big distinction in who he trusts. If  Tsa  murdered Riku (presumably Leader-kun by popular consensus), why would he have given him the Greed King Sword anyway? Did he give it to him just to murder him for it after? If it's a big enough deal for Tsa to limit his own freedom to prevent people ever getting them, do you get the picture? Sort of strange to arm someone you plan on killing later.

 

The dragon twisted its long neck and looked at the weapon behind it. At the weapon that ever since placed here, was never touched. It was a resplendent sword, with a blade of crystal. It was the weapon that the Eight Greed Kings swung to kill his brethren. And the sword that the leader of the 13 Heroes wielded.

In the base of the Eight Greed Kings, he had lent out the item as a symbol of his blessings.

[WN]


 "But Ziggy, that's Web Novel...."

Quiet you, voice in my head. I'm painting a narrative. How dare you interrupt my spinning and twisting facts to my own convenience! Even Maruyama just drops Web Novel lore into Light Novel.

Even if it's not confirmed in LN, Rigrit's convo with Tsa mirrors the Web Novel one:

 

In the past, Tsua had travelled with the old lady and her group by controlling an empty suit of armor as a substitute for himself. Therefore, when his true identity had come out, his companions had been furious about being tricked. He wanted them to forgive him for the time when he had surprised them by removing his helmet.

[WN]

Its name was—　

The dragon then blinked its eyes.

“What did he call it?” Thinking for some time, the dragon forced out some words. “….A Guilti Weapon?”

[WN]


“That weapon, was it a Guilty Weapon?”　

Seeing the weapon Tsua was talking about, the old woman shook her head.

“Guilty Weapon? No. That’s a Guild Weapon.”

“Ah!” Tsua felt the fog clear from his mind. “That’s right! Yes. That’s what he said. The strongest weapon the Eight Greed Kings wielded! I see, I see. A Guild Weapon.”

[WN]


The fact Rigrit reminds Tsa what a Guild Weapons proper name is implies Leader-kun is the one who taught it to them. That means it was Leader who explained it at the time of receiving it (probably).

"But Ziggy those lines aren't in the LN"

Shush. People who say Demon Gods = Guild Base NPCs sure like to use WN info as well. What, it's fine to have double standards?

 

“...Have the hundred-year aftershocks come? They aren’t on the side of thisworld like Leader was?”

[V7]

“It can’t be helped. He... killed a comrade(Player)he had spent his journey with, and it got to him. I can understand why he’d decline the resurrection.Rigrit, you were shocked too, right?”The old lady looked into the distance, and she slowly nodded with a pained expression on her face.

[V7]  

"On the side of this world."

"you were shocked too"

 

This sword — one of the eight great weapons which the Eight Greed Kings left behind — was the reason why Tsa could not leave this place.“I’ve been doing this until now, and I hope you can lend me a hand. I’d like you to collect information about magic items that can rival that sword over there... that can rival Guild Weapons. Or perhaps, special items from Yggdrasil like the strengthened armor which Red Drop — adamantite-ranked adventurers of the Kingdom — possesses.

[V7]

  Although not explicit, Tsa does discuss about Guild Weapons and YGGDRASIL as if Rigrit already understands what those things are. She already understands the Player waves too.

 Ziggy's reservation about Riku=Leader-kun is Tsa clearly has a strong connection to "comrades" (nakama) but not collaborators (a Japanese term that is not a meme, thanks Oda). Tsa lending out the Greed King sword as a form of trust as well  as Tsa's closeness to the 13 Heroes probably is a sign Leader-kun  was a comrade not a collaborator.

 If Riku isn't Leader-kun, who is he? Someone we never heard about? Ziggy doesn't think so. Even if you are dead set on Leader = Riku, let's see if a more plausible candidate exists. Just for fun.

*Ziggy adjusts tinfoil hat*
 

 "Should he just kill Azuth and take the Powered Suit?
This wasn't too bad of an idea to Tsa. If he gave the Powered Suit to someone
who was powerful enough to bend it to their will, it would definitely be more
useful than letting Azuth keep it. He could also gain a stronger card for his
hand then.
Personally, Tsa felt no disdain for Azuth, nor did he want to kill him himself,
but of what worth were emotions in this world.
...Riku
What was I reminiscing for now that things have turned out that way? Tsa
laughed at himself internally. These two hands of his were already besmirched
with filth. It was better to do it now than later.
Plus, he could blame it on the Sorcerer King if he did it now.
Azuth fought until he lost consciousness with Albedo and later handed the
Powered Suit to Tsa. That would be a good cover story.
But should he really allow history to repeat itself again?

[V14]

"Personally, Tsa felt no disdain for Azuth, nor did he want to kill him himself,
but of what worth were emotions in this world.
...Riku"

"But should he really allow history to repeat itself again?"

"allow history to repeat itself "

This implies Riku was someone similar to Azuth, a collaborator not a comrade. One with a powerful item worth murdering for. And someone whose murder could be pinned on someone Tsa is at odds with or he would not mind being blamed for it. He was in fact murdered after Tsa learned a bit about Guilds and World-class items from him. And finally, the blame was put on some convenient enemy Tsa seems to be opposed to.


That was certainly possible. He had heard from Riku that there were guilds that possessed two WCIs, so it was possible that they had two too.   
[V14]


This time, there was a new book-original character. So there is another, thus the New World’s Overlord appears.When that girl is present, there are 5 ’Godly Equipments [ hashira no soubi ],when that girl is not, there are only 4 Godly Equipments.

[V4AT]



’It was like I thought!’ the man drew near Ainz and genuflected on one knee, sincerely bowing in loyalty. ’Your expulsion by those that committed the Grave Sin[daizai]was no more than a falsely handed down tradition!

[WN]


By the way, I will tell people that read the concluding part. The oral tra-dition he is talking about is quite convenient. Due to the passage of time,one part of history has been distorted or viewed as convenient stories inOverlord.In reality it is not expulsion but ’killed/beat to death’. Therefore it is as-suredly a Grave Sin.Ah, to Tsa and the Theocracy the meaning of the Grave Sin differs slightly.Tsa had a deal with the 6 Great Gods, to strike the 8 Greed Kings together.Oh it’s dangerous if you catch that guy and extract information!For that reason, could you please vaguely understand things about TheSix Great Gods and The Eight Greed Kings and The Theocracy. 500 yearsago, some sort of thing happened.

[Twitter December 2014]


Are you piecing it together?


“….Could she also be a god?”

“I cannot say that it is impossible…. But she might be a True Dragon King.”

“Are you saying that they broke the 500-year-old World Pact? No, under these cases, the Pact has yet to be broken.”

Edgar frowned. It was an alliance against the poison that stained the world. The strongest contract that protected the Slane Theocracy. It would not break even under the worst circumstances.

[WN]


For reference, the New World considers a pact to be:


The anti-Sorcerous Kingdomalliance was forming at a snail’space,but progress was smooth nonetheless. They were at the stage of relying on the generos-ity and solidarity of other countries to hopefully get them to sign the mutual reinforcement pact at all costs, in other words, it was an unreliable relation-ship without written agreements. Something like that could not be publicly announced as an alliance.There were simply too many things to do to form a tight alliance, they wouldneed at least a few months to sort it out.

[V14]

the mutual reinforcement pact at all costs, in other words, it was an unreliable relation-ship without written agreements. Something like that could not be publicly announced as an alliance.

Ainz cautioned Jircniv about agreeing to things verbally too. It's also partly why Ainz wanted an OFFICIAL alliance. 

It would seem the best option was to bluff his way through, somehow.After deciding on the direction his words would take, Ainz made his reply.“It is too dangerous to verbally agree on such matters. I cannot make animmediate reply, but I believe such issues should be set down in writing.”“Then, does it mean that once I hand the document to you, you will approveof it?

[V10] 

Whether players were present or not, Ainz did not want to launch straightinto hostilities without a dialogue.After all, things were not progressing very well with the neighboringcountries.Now that they had to vassalize the country which they appeared to have hadthe best relations with, their name would live in infamy if they ended upwaging war on the Dwarves as well.Therefore, they had to do their best to sign a treaty of friendship with theDwarves. This way, they could show the nearby countries that the SorcerersKingdom was an entity which could abide by pacts and agreements. This wouldalso give them the moral high ground and allow them to limit the actionswhich could be taken by any players hiding out there

[V11] 

Here's Ziggy proposition:


Tsa formed a pact with Surshana(Riku) as a collaborator 500 years ago. Specifically a VERBAL pact. After learning about the Greed Kings and guilds, and perhaps fearing Slaine siding with the Greed Kings (a group that came in what is most definitely a guild base and would probably sidewith humanoids over the dragon lords or many non humanoid races), Tsa murders Riku to acquire an item of great power and pins the blame on the Greed Kings.Also to prevent the Greed Kings and Riku uniting against the Dragon Lords. Tsa feels bad but it was for the greater good and it didn't seem like Riku could be considered on the world's side or a comrade(nakama): given Slaine's teachings he was probably fine with "abusing" his power for his people's sake and or he was worshipped out of apepasement at least in the Web Novel (and given Ainz is an undead Player too we see there really are no hormonal or residual reasons to feel for people you trample on as an undead). The Great Gods were not shy or humble about their power as Slaine describes them(V10).

This connection would explain why Tsa knew an Undead named Rufus exists in Slaine (unless there is some never mentioned  event where Rufus went public) . Similarly, it explains why it's implied Slaine wanted to go to Tsa about mobilizing Zesshi or wiping out the Elven Kingdom. Volume 2 mentions Dragonlords would probably declare war on Slaine for harboring Godkin (presumably) yet Tsa doesn't appear to be as belligerent. Slaine was really only scared of a war with him due to the uninformed picking a fight with his nation escalting into probable mass murder since DragonLords are 'jobbers' to Players but can murder real good.    

So what would the great idea be that tipped the balance to murder of Surshana = Riku?


Slaine still possesses Player items but of these 5 of great importance stand out.

Slaine mobilized a Godkin and the entire Black Scripture to protect the World class item, Downfall of Castle and Country.


"Ziggy you can't be implying that Slaine has 5 World class items! Even Riku said guild only had at most 2!"

I hear you, dissenting voice in my head. But there's a simple assumption most fans have I find strange: there has never been mention of a Great God guild base in history. Isn't it possible that each Great God came alone, one world class item a piece? Why is that so difficult to consider? 

Especially after the reveal of the number of  'Divine Treasures'. Look at their nation: it's six sects united, not one mega culture to a certain guild or sect. Separate but equal kappa. Nigun explained it too, everyone respected each others gods , not that they all prayed to all six (the WN even explicitly has someone pray to a god that was not their own). Even the Pontiff's seat was rotated from monopolization from any single sect. That only supports the idea these Players came alone and banded together. Riku wasn't wrong about up to 2 world items per guild, six separate transfers would suggest six separate world class items. Riku may have only had one world class item, but the Great Gods could of possibly had 6 World class items collectively.

The Slane Theocracy believed in the Six Great Gods, worked together as an organisation, and built a country. Thus while they had different gods, they had the same goal could work together on them. Then what would happen if only one of the gods descended?
At worst, there was the possibility that the power balance within the temples would crumble. However she could not erase what had happened.
Should a god truly appear, she would fall on her knees. In front of a being that she should obey.
However what was scary was that the being looked like [Surshana]. The god that granted eternal peace to those with life, and the god that granted eternal despair. And the god that was stronger than the other five.
If it was true—
The Vice-Head Priest of the Water God’s body shook. She then prayed. Not to her god, but to the God of Death [Surshana].
[WN]

They — the Slaine Theocracy — might be divided into six sects, butwhenever they needed to act, they did so as one.One reason for that was because everyone respected each other’s gods.

 

[V1]



Next were the Cardinals, the highest appointment holders of the six sects that were devoted to the Six Gods. Incidentally, each of them(aside from the one belonging to the same sect as the current Pontifex Maximus)was a potential candidate to be the next Pontifex Maximus.

 

[V10]

So the fact Tsa murdered Riku for an item and blamed someone else for it is supported in Slaine only possessing 5 very important items, assuming these special items are world class items instead of say each Player's sole God class item or something. Unless one of the Great Gods were a NPC or not a Player at all. Or  a pair came together in some base. Etc etc.


 It's often portrayed as all of them are Players:


The Slane Theocracy worshipped Six Great Gods. And there were those amongst its population that had inherited the blood of Gods. They had the hidden potential to become much, much stronger.
In a sense, even Clementine had their blood.
However, that was all she had. She was far away from being called a Godkin　
Those were people who had awakened the power of the Gods hidden in their blood.
Currently, the Theocracy only had two. One was the Head of the Black Scripture that Clementine used to work for, and the other was the Head Priest of the Theocracy.
Their abilities were on another level

[WN]


“Could he be a God-kin?”The offspring of the beings known as “Players” were people who might awaken incredible power from within themselves. The Slaine Theocracy called these people demigods. Or, more precisely, they were the ones who carried the bloodline of the Six Gods within their veins. If they had the blood of others,they would be termed differently.It seemed very likely that this Momon was of the bloodline of a “Player”. Or rather, it would be better to say that no human could have possessed such power.

[V6]



Momon is too humble. Normally, someone withthat much strength would flash it around much more. Yes, just like the Eight Greed Kings. Or perhaps, like our Gods.”“I see. So the reason why he did not do that was because he was on the lookout for others. No, perhaps he was being watchful for others on the same level as him.

 

[V10]


Since Surshana is undead, and Godkin are descendants of Players, we can pretty much conclude at least one other Player came with Surshana. The reason being at least one person that was a Plyaer needed to leave descendants behind. Using possible evidence:


The god of death—-Sulshana

　Giving eternal rest to those with life, the god that gave an everlasting despair.

　Written in the scriptures as stronger than both the god of life and the other four gods, as humans could not escape the scythe of death. And that was more than life, a god that absolutely exists.

[WN]


You could suppose only the God of Life and Death were Players because for some reason the Four Elemetnal Gods were considered inferior to both. Our evidence, at bare minimum, can only prove there was at least two: Surshana and a Player who left descendants behind (obviously because Surshana is undead).

As an aside, Surshana being 'stronger' could refer to him being a more veteran Player, possessing a better world class item, better gear, or even being the only one of the 6 Great Gods to have subordinates (ie Monster summoning data items). If Rufus = Undead Adjutant, he would rival two Great Gods in a fight with just that alone. It could just be a misunderstanding about 'Death' never ending even after Surshana was 'expelled' ie murdered too. Most people just interpret it as Surshana's level was the largest.  

Now, one claim Ziggy didn't substantiate is : No Great God guild base was ever noted in history. Many cite:


The god that can control fear, death and disease, normally he would be considered an evil god. Most of the smaller gods he had as subordinates would be quite wicked. But, weirdly he fell to the earth, and was not a god that would freely spread vice. It anything, it was more like the smaller gods belonged to other gods.

[WN]

　魔神　：13英雄が封じた存在。悪魔の王的存在？　6大神の従属神が堕落して悪魔となった存在？

Demon Gods: Beings that were sealed by the 13 Heroes. Existence that could be known as the Demon Kings? The deities that once served the Six Great Gods fell and became the Demon Gods?

[WN]

“I know it... I know your true identities! — Demon Gods! You must be Demon Gods.”There were scant few intelligent beings that Nigun knew of, which could stand on par with the highest tier angels:The Six Gods which Nigun believed inThe kings of the mighty Draconic races — the Dragon Lords.The legendary monster who could destroy an entire country — Landfall.And one more — the Demon Gods.He had heard that the Thirteen Heroes had defeated and sealed away theDemon Gods. Judging by that wave of evil from just now, that must have been aDemon God about to break its seal.

[V1]

It's important to note the Demon Gods are typically  described as being "sealed". Not killed, not defeated but sealed. Subordinate gods. Sealed. People come to the conclusion they are guild base nPCs because you can 'beat' them  but they are not gone for good. Only 'sealed' ie returned to their base for example ready to be resummoned. That's the reasoning given at least by Demon Gods = Base nPCs believers.

The main argument is: no 'sealing' spell really comes up. Not by Tsa to counter Ainz, not by any of the former  13 Heroes, and not by Fluder either. So generally it's agreed on it's a misinterpretation of some sort. What it's really standing for is debated. 'NPCs that can be resummoned' 'Mercenaries that just need more gold to summon' 'Beings summoned by magic items ala Demon summoning statue'.

In particular, the theory is Surshana's guild base already came up too (presumably):

 

 
he being before him was the King of the Dead. A god from the realm of myths.
　The Evil God they worshipped, was a nameless god, said to be one with death and darkness. He built his palace in a land of freezing cold, where he held dominion over the frozen souls of the dead.
　Then, what he just did, was most definitely the release of a breath that could freeze their souls.
 ....
This cult was originally created to be a subsidiary of Zuranon. The God of Darkness was a being worshipped by the Slane Theocracy and they used it as a base to fabricate the Evil God.
[WN]

The problems were the guild with Asgard’s flying castle, the guild with the frozen palace(sic: Glacier Castle) in the deepest part of Helheim, and the guild that owned the field which spawned Fire Giants in Muspelheim. These 3 guilds rivalled Ainz Ooal Gown.
If this guild came, it would be beneficial if they began a friendly relationship.
However, if that was not the case?
He did not know how many guild members were left. And there were several people who could easily rival himself. It was important to behave such as to prevent any future hostilities. On the other hand, knowledge of their war potential needed to be gathered.
[WN]

Some dungeons could only be found under certain conditions. For instance, the entrance to a dungeon amidst a field of flowers in the depths of a forest could only be seen under the light of the full moon. A notable example of this was the Frozen City in Niflheim, which could only be entered during a blizzard.
[Prologue]

People interpret 'palace in a freezing cold place' to be an example of one of the possible locations imported from YGGDRASIL under the Demon God Guild Base NPC hypothesis.

The interpretation being "Surshana " held dominion over dead souls. IE dead souls = dead NPCs. The Demon gods are 'sealed' because they are not dead forever but can be brought back using the base. Leader, realizing these are guild base nPCs probably told of them only being temporarily dead ie "sealed"Similar to how Ainz can revive dead NPCs. Likewise, Surshana having some secret guild base also explains why Slaine only possesses 5 not 6 World class items: Surshana's would then be tied to his guild base somehow under that line of reasoning.


The only problem  I cannot reconcile as is why are the Demon Gods considered so weak then even if we assume there is some hidden guild base? Similarly, so far as it was brought up, it seemed mainly Surshana alone is associated with these 'subordinate' gods and no mention of some powerful or otherworldy city exists outside Clementine's fabricated Evil God backstory. It could just as likely be Surshana was part of a guild that conquerored one of these but it did not transfer with him (Yo, my guild base used to be that super rare ice place). People know of the floating castle and floating city at least. Even in these human boonies.

Similarly, Slaine talks about going to Surshana's 'first follower' to confirm if he really returned, not if the guild list in his base for instance (assuming non NPCs/non Players can even access it in the innermost parts of the base).

That leads into my next point: Surshana has a firt follower. "first". If he came with a base and NPCs, wouldn't this being be referred to as 'one of the Subordinate gods'? Ziggy's still of the opinion First Follower  = Rufus = Undead Adjutant. ie Level 90 meat shield for a lone caster.

“Impossible. The oral traditions state that the God of Death, Surshana-sama,was slain by the damnable Eight Greed Kings. This must be something else.And if Surshana-sama had actually descended once more, that person wouldsurely have told us. After all, that person is Surshana-sama’s first follower.”
[V10]

Subordinate gods seems like a misinterpretation by old Slaine to be honest. Similar to how Angels were first seen as messengers of the Great Gods.

  Angels.Angels were monsters summoned from another world, and many people —particularly, the citizens of the Slaine Theocracy — believed them to bemessengers of the gods. However, the priests of the Kingdom ruled that theseso-called angels were merely summoned monsters.While these religious disputes were part of the reason why the countrieswere set against each other, Gazef felt that their status as divine messengerswas secondary to their strength as monsters.
[V1]

To  this  end,  we’re  in  desperate  need  of  spies  capable  of  obtainingtop-secret  intel from our neighbors... We’re still too weak on that front.To  create  a  POP monster  that  Nazarick  would  not  automatically  respawn
required  two  ingredients.  One  was  the  monster’s  data  and  the  other  was  the corresponding amount of gold coins from Yggdrasil.Though the library of Nazarick contained data on various types of monsters, it  did  not  contain  the  data  of  every  single  type  of  monster  from  Yggdrasil. Some  monster’s  data  were  of  limited  use  too.  For  example,  they  had  already exhausted  theirsupply  of  data  on  Hanzos  and  the  library  did  not  contain  any data for the creation of Eight-Edge Assassins.The  creation  of  higher-tiered  monsters  incurred  the  cost  of  a  large  sum  of gold.If  that  was  the  case,  shouldn’t  weaker  monsters  suffice?  Though  hewanted to say so, actually using themwould mean that there would be a higher chance of them getting caught whenever they tried to infiltrate someplace.Amongst the surrounding nations, it wasn’t inconceivable to think that they weren’tthe  only  ones  capable  of  employing  monsters.  It  would  bebest  for them to use higher-tiered monsters who were harder for others to detect while their country was still of modest size.
[V14]
 
As we see in the sidestory Ainz didn't summon Mercenary monsters at all, probably because most people didn't carry around monster data. It's a different story if you had a guild base to keep them, but a solo Player that relied on Mercenary monsters (instead of fellow Players) would actually possess monster data however if they didn't keep a library in a guild base.  

The criminal organization which grew these drugs was known as EightFingers. The name came from the eight-fingered God of Thieves who was avassal of the Earth God. It was a vast criminal syndicate that dominated theKingdom’s underworld.
[V5]

“...In the past, I believed in a lesser deity who governed magic. However, ifyou are not that god, then I shall promptly renounce my faith. That is becausethe true god has deigned to appear before me.
[V7]

The Buddha he followed hailed from the far South, and had few followers.Some viewed him as one of the followers of the Four Gods. There was little known about him and there had been no interest in building a temple to such a god within the Imperial Capital. However, Jircniv did know that this man’s existence was considered a nuisance of sorts.
[V10]

Divanack? The Demon God of Corruption and Pleasure?”Climb asked from the side.Divanack was different from the Demon Gods the 13 Heroes defeated, but wasa Demon God, and ruled rotten desires. He was burned by the Fire God, andlocked in the Demon Realm.The eight βingers he had, contained the mean-ing of the eight desires that humans had. “Then, do they have a cult behindthem?”“It would be great if that were true. They are simply using that name. Accord-ing to the guild.”
[WN]


However — she was unhurt.Evileye usedFlyto get back up in a way that defied common sense.She was unhurt. However, had she not used a spell which converted physicaldamage to mana depletion, she would probably be dying by now.“Penetrate Maximize Magic - Crystal Dagger.”She created a crystal dagger that was bigger than usual. This spell causedpure physical damage, which was not easily resisted. In addition, she had used askill to allow it to breach spell resistance more easily.The demon did not dodge, but took it on his body. The spell’s damagepotential had been maximized, yet it did not seem to have affected the demonat all.“...I couldn’t hurt him even with a spell enhanced with Penetrate Magic...?This high-level demon is beyond my expectations, no, he might be beyond theDemon Gods! Could he be the King of the Demon Gods?!”Just adding the word “Lord” to a name did not make a monster stronger, butthe more powerful members of a species often called themselves “Lords” or“Kings”. That was common knowledge in this world.

...

The fact remained that Jaldabaoth existed, a demon with power surpassingthe Demon Gods by far.  

[V6]

“Yes. Normally, all we would have to do is wait for reinforcements from thesouth to arrive, but we have reports saying that Jaldabaoth used a mysteriouspower to destroy the wall in a single blow. As long as that tremendous factor ofuncertainty in play...”

...

“Umu. Such unbelievable power makes me think of the might of the DemonGods from the stories.”

“Nee-sama, even the Demon Gods weren’t this powerful. For all we know,Jaldabaoth might be a being superior to the Demon Gods.”

[V12]  

The Surshana secret guild base theory explains this by saying only weak Demon Gods existed because all the strong ones attempted to face the Greed Kings and lost. In particular just as Ainz only let the Pleiades or stronger out to operate, people say Surshana forbid the less than level 50 NPcs / future demon Gods from heading out.

Now there are theories of the Demon Gods rampaging to try to revive the strong NPCs too.  It goes full Dead Space / Mass Effect too, claiming they waited 300 years so civilization got advanced enough to make many magic items to harvest via the guild shredder to amass enough coins for said resurrection.

"Ziggy why are you cucking and derailing your own head canon article?"


Isn't it disingenuous for me not to bring up a competing argument? I may disagree with it, but it doesn't mean I don't see merit in an alternate interpretation or belief. I've seen a LOT of Overlord theory crafting. This is just one of the more interesting ones that sounds plausible with how little we know. End of the day, it's all head canon until we get more evidence. I could've of brought up Enslaved Demon King theory too. But I won't. 

disingenuous:
not candid or sincere, typically by pretending that one knows less about something than one really does.

 It would be hypocritcal for me to want people to be open minded without being open minded myself after considering the evidence.

 Ziggy would argue the Six Great Gods were probably distinct Players or beings at least. You can confirm 2 but it's probably more. Since given special marriage practices and preserving bloodlines and Elf King's own trouble having "awakened" children, there was probably enough descendants for them to figure out incest is wincest in terms of power levels. It's very strange Zesshi was born from two separate Awakened bloodlines fusing. Similarly Slaine speaks about 'preserving' bloodlines and strangely keeps tabs on heritage.NPCs being able to have children is a mystery. Seems like Ainz's guild base NPCs think its possible.

 
Ironically, it was some native isolated Lizardmen we see also possess awakened bloodlines. Naturally people breeding would be more closely related in such an insular society.

The sects aside, let's scrutinize those supposed world class items some more.

The exact verbage for these 5 Great Relics is is "5 hashira no soubi".  Soubi just means equipment or articles of items . Originally I believed hashira was read as a noun, ie "pillars"  or "keystones". I've even seen people say it was supoosed to mean Zesshi was one of "5 trump cards" That's wrong btw since "equipment is never used to refer to any of Slaine's human resources". I only learned later that "hashira" once following a number actually implies the things are of great veneration. Similar to mementos of ancestors or something with a spirit inside it. If we reread it this way it is "there are 5 Relics Items  " or "5 Heirloom Armaments". "Relic" expresses that idea the best but is already an item grade in YGGDRASIL so.... leads to confusion. "Heirloom" or "venerated" are perhaps better ways to read it.


Irregardless of their world class item status, there are five items of great power in Slaine and Zessshi is equipped with one.


"Ziggy you can't assume those are world class items... REEEEEEE"



The reason was top secret, so he could not tell his subordinates, but Nigunknew the truth.The Black Scripture was protecting the holy relic "Kei Seke Kouku" in preparation against the resurrection of the Catastrophe Dragon Lord

[V1]


That qípáo was called Downfall of Castle and Country(Kei Seke Kouku). This was a sacred treasure left behind by the gods who saved all humanity, and its power exceeded that of anything which Shalltear carried.(TL Note: 倾城倾国: this is the item Nigun mentioned as “Kei Seke Kouku” in Vol.1)

[V3]


Ainz produced a crystal and showed it to the intrigued Ainzach.“...It can’t be! It’s impossible, unbelievable...” Rakesheer shouted, beforepanting:“I once read an old tome... they say that the Theocracy possesses powerfulmagic items which they consider their national treasures. This is one of them...a spell-sealing crystal.

[V3]


“The power of the gods, Downfall of Castle and Country, will probably not work on that fellow who can use wild magic, unlike with the Catastrophe Dragon Lord. How about using it on the Sorcerer King?”

Silence descended over the meeting room. It was a proposal that they were thinking, but could not speak.

 “...It’s not a bad idea, but the fact that we don’t know what sort of power the Sorcerer King’s subordinates possess makes me uneasy.”

 “...If only it could charm without limit, there would be no problems.”

“How dare you! The gods gave their lives to protect us, humanity! And to think you would be dissatisfied with the secret treasures they left behind? The audacity!

[V10]

 

 Slaine gave out a Spell Sealing Crystal to Nigun and the world at large knows of them, or at least the Adventurer guild does. But as Nigun described it, Downfall was mobilized alongside the entire Black Scripture sans Zesshi. In the WN and LN we see the black Scripture normally does not mobilize the entire unit for tasks. It's clear Slaine put far more value on their World class item than a somewhat known Spell Sealing crystal. It's even called the power of the Gods even.

Slaine's top echelon understands the "power of the gods" doesn't work in general on True Dragon Lords at least. You could interpret that  only Downfall has that designation (a loose understanding of world class items trumping other effects) but you can also interpret it as as Slaine possesses more than one item of that power level. Given layers could of come alone, and Slaine guards their items, isn't it more likely they had more World Class Items, hence why they didn't say "the most supreme magical item/relic"? 

"That's bullshit Ziggy REEEEEEE"

“I can’t deny what she’s seen any more. This is magic of the gods. 11th tiermagic, I believe? That should be it.”“The advent of the gods.”

[V10] 

All I want to say is if Slaine calls 'Super Tier '  (magic evne nPCs cannot copy in nearly all cases)' magic of the gods' can we not also postulate 'power of the gods', already used to refer to one world class item, cannot also refer to magic items only Gods (Players) typically possess but seem to not work on Wild Magic users? Members of the Black Scripture already treat 'God Level' as it's own power level.

So back to Demon Gods and Guild Bases.

 What's strange is why Slaine doesn't mention amassing funds or items to try to bring back Demon Gods if they really did possess a guild base. The issue with the guild conjecture is that your only clue it may exist is the Demon Gods.  You can just as easily attribute to Surshana/Cardinals just using lots of Mercenary monsters of around level 40ish (stronger than most anything else) for whatever purpose. Even Surshana's first follower can be explained as Surshana just using Undead Adjutant instead of a guild base NPC. My point is the Demon God's lower level makes more sense if you consider them Mercenaries summoned by amassing wealth in the New World. Seems more plausible than assuming a guild base just had level 40s at best in it for a bunch of NPCs. 

It's  probably easier to assume a Player had gold and mercenary monster summoning items than a super secret never mentioned before or  described guild base.  If we presume Tsa murdered Surshana for an item, it's more likely it was for a world class item given the only item Tsa seems on guard for are world class items(items comparable to guild weapons) or guild weapons.

 

 ==

As things stand, Ziggy leans more toward the conjecture Riku was Surshana not the leader of the 13 Heroes because most of the 'counter points' can also be contested as conjectures popular in folklore in the community but with rationally viable arguments. There is room for debate about why the Demon Gods were around, but you can just as easily say they were Mercenaries and Surshana's world class item/ 'Godly item' was stolen by Tsa (instead of Surshana came in some secret Guild base with an attached world class item). Platinum Dragon's are cunts and he probably iced Surshana and put all the blame on the Greed Kings. That cunt.

 Plus, he could blame it on the Sorcerer King if he did it now.

[V14]

 Plus, he could blame it on the Greed Kings if he did it now.

[VHeadcanon]

 

 Dun Dun Duuuuuuuuun

 

Bonus:

 

You know how people in Slaine worshipped Surshana out of fear? 

 

Or how PVP in YGGDRASIL was cut throat?

Why would Riku tell Tsa so much? Why would he even trust him or even try to oppose the Greed Kings ina pact if he was the last god?

Slaine Arc Plot Twist:

Riku=Surshana=an NPC summon

First Follower = Rufus = Player

Dun Dun Duuuuuun

 

 That soudns like bullshit, but consider it. Would an Undead Player easily trust fellow Players who all came separately if he now was made less empathetic and rational? And if he was just an average person, wouldn't it be safer to let an Overlord Wiseman run things, a being with some flavor text probably related to being 'wise'? If Surshana and his first follower came alone, then not even the other Gods would understand it was all an act. 

Dun Dun Duuuuuuun 

It's the perfect deception. And it's exactly what Ainz does with andora's Actor to fool his enemies or potential threats like a Rogue Sebas. Tsa already fell for Ainz's deception, so if now why not in the past when he had even less YGGDRASIL understanding?

And if Surshana-sama had actually descended once more, that person wouldsurely have told us. After all, that person is Surshana-sama’s first follower.”
[V10]

Everyone aassumes this means Surshana =  Player. But couldn't First Follower be the summoner and Surshana be the summon? This 'fact' still is true if you switch the master and servant. A master would know if his connection to a summon was restored no?

 

It also explains why 'Riku' told Tsa some guilds only had 2 World class items when Ainz indicates 3 was actually possible. The Cardinal's strange lack of awareness about Godkin makes more sense too if you consider the Black Scripure knew about Godkin in detail and this strange undead Rufus but Slaine's rulers didn't bring him up at all. Also the Black Scripture seem willing to kill on any sign of a information leak.

 

Ziggy knows that sounds bullshit, but think about it: 

Is a Player going to call themself Surshana, or something silly like Rufus? Surshana, almost certainly a corruption of -盧舎那仏- is too meaningful a name. Or not.

Ziggy Fever dream:

Riku summons an Overlord Wiseman 

"Don't kill any humies, got it?"

"Humie...Dai-suki...?"

"Good."*hides in a barrel*

"Murder.All.Xeno.Scum." (Master said only humanity will be spared. That means there is no mercy for any other)

=========

"Bro, you're like totally zen and calm. Like a Buddha in Sage Mode."

"Riku-sama?"

"Stahp. YOU'RE Riku. I'm Rufus. Walking around with a Japanese name is painting a target on your back.  Here's the plan, you summoned ME. Good? Imma hide in cave, I leave it to you 'Riku'."

=====

"Rufus-sama!!! Sur-Surshana-sama's been-"

"Yeah yea, old news. "

"We need to avenge-"

"No way fag. Go getyourself murdered. Imma hide."

 

It's mostly a shitpost.Mostly. Rufus taught Quintia howto force responsibilities on others! 

"You're pretty good at passing the buck, kid. But you still have much to learn. I'll leave it to you. The NEETo life's neato!!I'LL NEVER WORK AGAIN AND YOU CAN'T MAKE ME!"

"No. Wait-"

Mid sentence Quintia's face blooms into a smile as Rufus pretends togo down stair behind a couch fort.

"'He got me. "

 "Remember the path to happiness: never do what you can sucker other people into."

"Is that a teaching of Surshana-sama!?"

"Sure. yup. He said it himself. Now, bring me pillows."